Classic EFI 500cc starting and running issue

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Classic EFI 500cc starting and running issue

bulletwallas.india
I have in my workshop an EFI export model 500cc with no kick start.  I have been doing some custom work on the mudguard and tannes for a customer.  the bike has hardly been used in the past 5 months.  We do not work on these bikes mechanically.

When we received the bike it was running fine and it sat with us for a few weeks whle some body work was being done. when we started the bike the low fuel level indicator showed and the bike would run for 500m and then stop.  it sounded like a tractor. Pushed it back to the workshop started it and off for another 500m run, then stop again.

The owner told me that he has not been putting much fuel in for the past 6 months, maybe 3 litres at a time.

Well anyway, we have cleaned the tank, replaced the fuel, added some injector clean additive and started the bike.  it now only runs for 2 seconds and then dies.  Spark plug is rich, black.

We removed the throttle controller to check for contamination, there was black film at the butterfly valve. Cleaned and reassembled.

We noted that the decompressor/starter cable connection into the throttle controller was loose, in fact the plastic holder's thread was pretty much finished.  So many parts right next to it that plastic is not a great option to use.  so we removed the cable, spring and plunger and with plumbers tape sealed the plastic holder back in position just to seal the area off.  Note that this plastic fitting will have a high failure rate, source some spares to have on hand when needed.

On starting the very same effect, running for 2 seconds only.

We cannot find any information on the controller body, we have a service manual and parts manual which show pictures of the unit but no detail on any part of it.

Would really appreciate any feed back on how to get this machine running smoothly again.

thanks   Chris



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Re: Classic EFI 500cc starting and running issue

Al-101
 Chris, did you "pull" a trouble code from the bikes computer?

 It sounds to me as though  the fuel pump is not being commanded to run by the PCM (power control module). Upon turning the ignition key to "on" the PCM will energize the fuel pump for two seconds so that the fuel injection system may be brought up to operating pressure. The PCM then shuts down the fuel pump until it gets a "tach signal" from the engine. This tach "signal" confirms to the PCM that the engine is running and so that the PCM can  resume supplying current to the fuel pump to permit it to operate.

I beleive that your bike's engine is running for a short period on the initial 2 second energizing of the fuel pump. The engine then stops after this the fuel supplied during this period is exhausted. 

 You might confirm this diagnosis by running a temporary jumper between the fuel pumps power terminal and the machine's battery. If the engine continues to run, my suspicion about the PCM failure to receive a tach signal would be confirmed.

   Al in Philadelphia


From: Bullet <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 9:27 AM
Subject: [Enfield] Classic EFI 500cc starting and running issue


 
I have in my workshop an EFI export model 500cc with no kick start. I have been doing some custom work on the mudguard and tones for a customer. the bike has hardly been used in the past 5 months. We do not work on these bikes mechanically.

When we received the bike it was running fine and it sat with us for a few weeks while some body work was being done. when we started the bike the low fuel level indicator showed and the bike would run for 500m and then stop. it sounded like a tractor. Pushed it back to the workshop started it and off for another 500m run, then stop again.

The owner told me that he has not been putting much fuel in for the past 6 months, maybe 3 litres at a time.

Well anyway, we have cleaned the tank, replaced the fuel, added some injector clean additive and started the bike. it now only runs for 2 seconds and then dies. Spark plug is rich, black.

We removed the throttle controller to check for contamination, there was black film at the butterfly valve. Cleaned and reassembled.

We noted that the decompressor/starter cable connection into the throttle controller was loose, in fact the plastic holder's thread was pretty much finished. So many parts right next to it that plastic is not a great option to use. so we removed the cable, spring and plunger and with plumbers tape sealed the plastic holder back in position just to seal the area off. Note that this plastic fitting will have a high failure rate, source some spares to have on hand when needed.

On starting the very same effect, running for 2 seconds only.

We cannot find any information on the controller body, we have a service manual and parts manual which show pictures of the unit but no detail on any part of it.

Would really appreciate any feed back on how to get this machine running smoothly again.

thanks Chris


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Re: Classic EFI 500cc starting and running issue

Bullet-3
Hi Al,

This is the first of these beasties to come to us and was not for mechanical work. Very much not keen to fiddle as we are not set up for all of the technical issues that come with them.  We work on twin sparks fine, old school stuff but hands off on these critters.

So this sounds like a problem that we cannot solve, though we shall try a new spark plug this morning in the hope that it is still an old school problem.

Chris

--- In [hidden email], Al <k3eax@...> wrote:

>
>  Chris, did you "pull" a trouble code from the bikes computer?
>
>  It sounds to me as though  the fuel pump is not being commanded to run by the PCM (power control module). Upon turning the ignition key to "on" the PCM will energize the fuel pump for two seconds so that the fuel injection system may be brought up to operating pressure. The PCM then shuts down the fuel pump until it gets a "tach signal" from the engine. This tach "signal" confirms to the PCM that the engine is running and so that the PCM can  resume supplying current to the fuel pump to permit it to operate.
>
> I beleive that your bike's engine is running for a short period on the initial 2 second energizing of the fuel pump. The engine then stops after this the fuel supplied during this period is exhausted. 
>
>  You might confirm this diagnosis by running a temporary jumper between the fuel pumps power terminal and the machine's battery. If the engine continues to run, my suspicion about the PCM failure to receive a tach signal would be confirmed.
>
>    Al in Philadelphia
>
>
> From: Bullet <bulletwallas.india@...>
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 9:27 AM
> Subject: [Enfield] Classic EFI 500cc starting and running issue
>
>
>  
> I have in my workshop an EFI export model 500cc with no kick start. I have been doing some custom work on the mudguard and tones for a customer. the bike has hardly been used in the past 5 months. We do not work on these bikes mechanically.
>
> When we received the bike it was running fine and it sat with us for a few weeks while some body work was being done. when we started the bike the low fuel level indicator showed and the bike would run for 500m and then stop. it sounded like a tractor. Pushed it back to the workshop started it and off for another 500m run, then stop again.
>
> The owner told me that he has not been putting much fuel in for the past 6 months, maybe 3 litres at a time.
>
> Well anyway, we have cleaned the tank, replaced the fuel, added some injector clean additive and started the bike. it now only runs for 2 seconds and then dies. Spark plug is rich, black.
>
> We removed the throttle controller to check for contamination, there was black film at the butterfly valve. Cleaned and reassembled.
>
> We noted that the decompressor/starter cable connection into the throttle controller was loose, in fact the plastic holder's thread was pretty much finished. So many parts right next to it that plastic is not a great option to use. so we removed the cable, spring and plunger and with plumbers tape sealed the plastic holder back in position just to seal the area off. Note that this plastic fitting will have a high failure rate, source some spares to have on hand when needed.
>
> On starting the very same effect, running for 2 seconds only.
>
> We cannot find any information on the controller body, we have a service manual and parts manual which show pictures of the unit but no detail on any part of it.
>
> Would really appreciate any feed back on how to get this machine running smoothly again.
>
> thanks Chris
>


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Re: Classic EFI 500cc starting and running issue

Al-101
http://www.enfieldmotorcycles.com/forum/

 You may wish to try this forum sponsored by the U.S. importer of Royal Enfield.

  Yes, modern fuel and ignition management is a bit different but in many ways simpler. Perhaps  a good guiding text may help. Also, save your time effort by not going the spark plug replacement route  --- it'll be fruitless.

  Al

   


From: Bullet <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 11:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Enfield] Classic EFI 500cc starting and running issue


 
Hi Al,

This is the first of these beasties to come to us and was not for mechanical work. Very much not keen to fiddle as we are not set up for all of the technical issues that come with them. We work on twin sparks fine, old school stuff but hands off on these critters.

So this sounds like a problem that we cannot solve, though we shall try a new spark plug this morning in the hope that it is still an old school problem.

Chris

--- In [hidden email], Al <k3eax@...> wrote:

>
>  Chris, did you "pull" a trouble code from the bikes computer?
>
>  It sounds to me as though  the fuel pump is not being commanded to run by the PCM (power control module). Upon turning the ignition key to "on" the PCM will energize the fuel pump for two seconds so that the fuel injection system may be brought up to operating pressure. The PCM then shuts down the fuel pump until it gets a "tach signal" from the engine. This tach "signal" confirms to the PCM that the engine is running and so that the PCM can  resume supplying current to the fuel pump to permit it to operate.
>
> I beleive that your bike's engine is running for a short period on the initial 2 second energizing of the fuel pump. The engine then stops after this the fuel supplied during this period is exhausted. 
>
>  You might confirm this diagnosis by running a temporary jumper between the fuel pumps power terminal and the machine's battery. If the engine continues to run, my suspicion about the PCM failure to receive a tach signal would be confirmed.
>
>    Al in Philadelphia
>
>
> From: Bullet <bulletwallas.india@...>
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 9:27 AM
> Subject: [Enfield] Classic EFI 500cc starting and running issue
>
>
>  
> I have in my workshop an EFI export model 500cc with no kick start. I have been doing some custom work on the mudguard and tones for a customer. the bike has hardly been used in the past 5 months. We do not work on these bikes mechanically.
>
> When we received the bike it was running fine and it sat with us for a few weeks while some body work was being done. when we started the bike the low fuel level indicator showed and the bike would run for 500m and then stop. it sounded like a tractor. Pushed it back to the workshop started it and off for another 500m run, then stop again.
>
> The owner told me that he has not been putting much fuel in for the past 6 months, maybe 3 litres at a time.
>
> Well anyway, we have cleaned the tank, replaced the fuel, added some injector clean additive and started the bike. it now only runs for 2 seconds and then dies. Spark plug is rich, black.
>
> We removed the throttle controller to check for contamination, there was black film at the butterfly valve. Cleaned and reassembled.
>
> We noted that the decompressor/starter cable connection into the throttle controller was loose, in fact the plastic holder's thread was pretty much finished. So many parts right next to it that plastic is not a great option to use. so we removed the cable, spring and plunger and with plumbers tape sealed the plastic holder back in position just to seal the area off. Note that this plastic fitting will have a high failure rate, source some spares to have on hand when needed.
>
> On starting the very same effect, running for 2 seconds only.
>
> We cannot find any information on the controller body, we have a service manual and parts manual which show pictures of the unit but no detail on any part of it.
>
> Would really appreciate any feed back on how to get this machine running smoothly again.
>
> thanks Chris
>


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Re: Classic EFI 500cc starting and running issue

Bullet-3
Yes Al you are quite right but my old school mechanics needed to be humoured, they often don't believe that I know anything.  Anyway the owner of the bike knows the owner of RE India and Asia, so a technician is due to visit in the next 24 hours to take a look at this lame duck.

Thanks for your help.

Chris

https://www.facebook.com/pages/BulletWallas-Private-Limited/117189674803

--- In [hidden email], Al <k3eax@...> wrote:

>
> http://www.enfieldmotorcycles.com/forum/
>
>  You may wish to try this forum sponsored by the U.S. importer of Royal Enfield.
>
>   Yes, modern fuel and ignition management is a bit different but in many ways simpler. Perhaps  a good guiding text may help. Also, save your time effort by not going the spark plug replacement route  --- it'll be fruitless.
>
>   Al
>
>    
>
>
> From: Bullet <chris.bulletwallas@...>
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 11:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [Enfield] Classic EFI 500cc starting and running issue
>
>
>  
> Hi Al,
>
> This is the first of these beasties to come to us and was not for mechanical work. Very much not keen to fiddle as we are not set up for all of the technical issues that come with them. We work on twin sparks fine, old school stuff but hands off on these critters.
>
> So this sounds like a problem that we cannot solve, though we shall try a new spark plug this morning in the hope that it is still an old school problem.
>
> Chris
>
> --- In [hidden email], Al <k3eax@> wrote:
> >
> >  Chris, did you "pull" a trouble code from the bikes computer?
> >
> >  It sounds to me as though  the fuel pump is not being commanded to run by the PCM (power control module). Upon turning the ignition key to "on" the PCM will energize the fuel pump for two seconds so that the fuel injection system may be brought up to operating pressure. The PCM then shuts down the fuel pump until it gets a "tach signal" from the engine. This tach "signal" confirms to the PCM that the engine is running and so that the PCM can  resume supplying current to the fuel pump to permit it to operate.
> >
> > I beleive that your bike's engine is running for a short period on the initial 2 second energizing of the fuel pump. The engine then stops after this the fuel supplied during this period is exhausted. 
> >
> >  You might confirm this diagnosis by running a temporary jumper between the fuel pumps power terminal and the machine's battery. If the engine continues to run, my suspicion about the PCM failure to receive a tach signal would be confirmed.
> >
> >    Al in Philadelphia
> >
> >
> > From: Bullet <bulletwallas.india@>
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 9:27 AM
> > Subject: [Enfield] Classic EFI 500cc starting and running issue
> >
> >
> >  
> > I have in my workshop an EFI export model 500cc with no kick start. I have been doing some custom work on the mudguard and tones for a customer. the bike has hardly been used in the past 5 months. We do not work on these bikes mechanically.
> >
> > When we received the bike it was running fine and it sat with us for a few weeks while some body work was being done. when we started the bike the low fuel level indicator showed and the bike would run for 500m and then stop. it sounded like a tractor. Pushed it back to the workshop started it and off for another 500m run, then stop again.
> >
> > The owner told me that he has not been putting much fuel in for the past 6 months, maybe 3 litres at a time.
> >
> > Well anyway, we have cleaned the tank, replaced the fuel, added some injector clean additive and started the bike. it now only runs for 2 seconds and then dies. Spark plug is rich, black.
> >
> > We removed the throttle controller to check for contamination, there was black film at the butterfly valve. Cleaned and reassembled.
> >
> > We noted that the decompressor/starter cable connection into the throttle controller was loose, in fact the plastic holder's thread was pretty much finished. So many parts right next to it that plastic is not a great option to use. so we removed the cable, spring and plunger and with plumbers tape sealed the plastic holder back in position just to seal the area off. Note that this plastic fitting will have a high failure rate, source some spares to have on hand when needed.
> >
> > On starting the very same effect, running for 2 seconds only.
> >
> > We cannot find any information on the controller body, we have a service manual and parts manual which show pictures of the unit but no detail on any part of it.
> >
> > Would really appreciate any feed back on how to get this machine running smoothly again.
> >
> > thanks Chris
> >
>


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Re: Classic EFI 500cc starting and running issue

Dave Murray-2
"It sounds to me as though  the fuel pump is not being commanded to
run by the PCM (power control module). Upon turning the ignition key to "on"
the PCM will energize the fuel pump for two seconds so that the fuel injection
system may be brought up to operating pressure. The PCM then shuts down the fuel
pump until it gets a "tach signal" from the engine. This tach "signal" confirms
to the PCM that the engine is running and so that the PCM can  resume
supplying current to the fuel pump to permit it to operate.
> >"

Man, I just walked over and hugged my two carbed bikes!
DWM

"In Var, only dot vitch is simple can succeed. Vot I saw today at the Kavallerie School vas not simple!"
Erwin Rommel (Then a Colonel)


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Re: Classic EFI 500cc starting and running issue

Al-101
In reply to this post by Bullet-3
     I rather suspect that  the RE tech will find the problem to be in the KPS circuit; this is the crank position sensor and associated wiring. The KPS plays a role in ignition timing and supplying the PCM with a tach signal that enables the fuel pump to be powered up.

     I/we would be interested in the tech findings. 

     Good luck!

          Al


From: Bullet <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 8:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Enfield] Classic EFI 500cc starting and running issue


 
Yes Al you are quite right but my old school mechanics needed to be humoured, they often don't believe that I know anything. Anyway the owner of the bike knows the owner of RE India and Asia, so a technician is due to visit in the next 24 hours to take a look at this lame duck.

Thanks for your help.

Chris

https://www.facebook.com/pages/BulletWallas-Private-Limited/117189674803

--- In [hidden email], Al <k3eax@...> wrote:

>
> http://www.enfieldmotorcycles.com/forum/
>
>  You may wish to try this forum sponsored by the U.S. importer of Royal Enfield.
>
>   Yes, modern fuel and ignition management is a bit different but in many ways simpler. Perhaps  a good guiding text may help. Also, save your time effort by not going the spark plug replacement route  --- it'll be fruitless.
>
>   Al
>
>    
>
>
> From: Bullet <chris.bulletwallas@...>
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 11:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [Enfield] Classic EFI 500cc starting and running issue
>
>
>  
> Hi Al,
>
> This is the first of these beasties to come to us and was not for mechanical work. Very much not keen to fiddle as we are not set up for all of the technical issues that come with them. We work on twin sparks fine, old school stuff but hands off on these critters.
>
> So this sounds like a problem that we cannot solve, though we shall try a new spark plug this morning in the hope that it is still an old school problem.
>
> Chris
>
> --- In [hidden email], Al <k3eax@> wrote:
> >
> >  Chris, did you "pull" a trouble code from the bikes computer?
> >
> >  It sounds to me as though  the fuel pump is not being commanded to run by the PCM (power control module). Upon turning the ignition key to "on" the PCM will energize the fuel pump for two seconds so that the fuel injection system may be brought up to operating pressure. The PCM then shuts down the fuel pump until it gets a "tach signal" from the engine. This tach "signal" confirms to the PCM that the engine is running and so that the PCM can  resume supplying current to the fuel pump to permit it to operate.
> >
> > I beleive that your bike's engine is running for a short period on the initial 2 second energizing of the fuel pump. The engine then stops after this the fuel supplied during this period is exhausted. 
> >
> >  You might confirm this diagnosis by running a temporary jumper between the fuel pumps power terminal and the machine's battery. If the engine continues to run, my suspicion about the PCM failure to receive a tach signal would be confirmed.
> >
> >    Al in Philadelphia
> >
> >
> > From: Bullet <bulletwallas.india@>
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 9:27 AM
> > Subject: [Enfield] Classic EFI 500cc starting and running issue
> >
> >
> >  
> > I have in my workshop an EFI export model 500cc with no kick start. I have been doing some custom work on the mudguard and tones for a customer. the bike has hardly been used in the past 5 months. We do not work on these bikes mechanically.
> >
> > When we received the bike it was running fine and it sat with us for a few weeks while some body work was being done. when we started the bike the low fuel level indicator showed and the bike would run for 500m and then stop. it sounded like a tractor. Pushed it back to the workshop started it and off for another 500m run, then stop again.
> >
> > The owner told me that he has not been putting much fuel in for the past 6 months, maybe 3 litres at a time.
> >
> > Well anyway, we have cleaned the tank, replaced the fuel, added some injector clean additive and started the bike. it now only runs for 2 seconds and then dies. Spark plug is rich, black.
> >
> > We removed the throttle controller to check for contamination, there was black film at the butterfly valve. Cleaned and reassembled.
> >
> > We noted that the decompressor/starter cable connection into the throttle controller was loose, in fact the plastic holder's thread was pretty much finished. So many parts right next to it that plastic is not a great option to use. so we removed the cable, spring and plunger and with plumbers tape sealed the plastic holder back in position just to seal the area off. Note that this plastic fitting will have a high failure rate, source some spares to have on hand when needed.
> >
> > On starting the very same effect, running for 2 seconds only.
> >
> > We cannot find any information on the controller body, we have a service manual and parts manual which show pictures of the unit but no detail on any part of it.
> >
> > Would really appreciate any feed back on how to get this machine running smoothly again.
> >
> > thanks Chris
> >
>


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Re: Classic EFI 500cc starting and running issue

Pete Snidal
In reply to this post by Bullet-3
At 05:42 AM 7/22/2011, you wrote:
>Yes Al you are quite right but my old school mechanics needed to be
>humoured, they often don't believe that I know anything.  Anyway the
>owner of the bike knows the owner of RE India and Asia, so a
>technician is due to visit in the next 24 hours to take a look at
>this lame duck.

Great!  I hope you'll let us know what he found!
    I should have mentioned that I like the idea of a plugged vent in
the fuel tank cap...
ps www.enfield.20m.com
]

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Re: Classic EFI 500cc starting and running issue

Pete Snidal
In reply to this post by Dave Murray-2
At 08:20 AM 7/22/2011, you wrote:

>"It sounds to me as though  the fuel pump is not being commanded to
>run by the PCM (power control module). Upon
>turning the ignition key to "on"
>the PCM will energize the fuel pump for two seconds so that the fuel injection
>system may be brought up to operating pressure.
>The PCM then shuts down the fuel
>pump until it gets a "tach signal" from the
>engine. This tach "signal" confirms
>to the PCM that the engine is running and so that the PCM can  resume
>supplying current to the fuel pump to permit it to operate.
> > >"

An elegant and probably correct explanation!  I
guess I'd add to my previous suggestion: unplug
and replug the EC Module, and any others you can
find in there!  - With battery disconnected of course!

Fiddling with electronics often works!  I think they're all female...  (oops!)

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Re: Classic EFI 500cc starting and running issue

Al-101
In reply to this post by Pete Snidal
 Pete, you seem to be unaware that most EFI equiped engines have fuel tanks that are not vented to the atmosphere  -- simply put, our friends problem could not be the result of a plugged fuel tank cap. Because of emission control requirements, a vapor recovery system is used that both draws in fresh air and then redirects the fuel vapor/air back through the PVC system.

 I afraid it's a new day, Pete

   Al  



Great! I hope you'll let us know what he found!
I should have mentioned that I like the idea of a plugged vent in
the fuel tank cap...
ps www.enfield.20m.com
]


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Re: Classic EFI 500cc starting and running issue

Bullet-3
In reply to this post by Pete Snidal
Life and machines can be so complicated but the simplest of things can have you beat.

So the RE engineer arrived today, were were all full of anticipation and trepidation. I showed him a list of suggested areas to look at on advise of you guys here.  no English, just Hindi so it was not much help.  ahhh well what's new.

Well pressed the started a few times, put a wire direct to the battery but I missed where else he put it, probably the fuel pump as was suggested.

then he disconnected a connection under the seat, looked and with a needle bent a pin and plugged it back in.  Started and it ran until he turned it off.  Cured just like that.  Such a fine 3 pin connection that had one pin that just caught the side of the connector and bent over, thus not connecting.  When the connector was opened, it popped back almost to the correct position, but obviously the engineer noted the slight difference that we with untrained eyes missed.  so that was easy, that was great.

The bike still runs and sounds like a diesel as it did after it sat for a month without starting and as we found out minimal petrol.  We cleaned that tank a few days back, added fresh fuel and some diesel injector cleaner that I had 20 wee bottles of for the rush of diesel bikes that has yet to come.  Anyway hoping that this would have dissolved any build up in the injector with some running and it would run smooth again.  it has not.  Anyway got the bike up to the welder to finish the mudguard and tanne alignment and now off to the painter.

Some earlier pics  https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150144323479804.333433.117189674803&type=1

Just have to get her singing again, and get the rattle out so it can go back home to Arne.

Thanks for your help one and all.

Chris

--- In [hidden email], Pete Snidal <snidey@...> wrote:

>
> At 08:20 AM 7/22/2011, you wrote:
> >"It sounds to me as though  the fuel pump is not being commanded to
> >run by the PCM (power control module). Upon
> >turning the ignition key to "on"
> >the PCM will energize the fuel pump for two seconds so that the fuel injection
> >system may be brought up to operating pressure.
> >The PCM then shuts down the fuel
> >pump until it gets a "tach signal" from the
> >engine. This tach "signal" confirms
> >to the PCM that the engine is running and so that the PCM can  resume
> >supplying current to the fuel pump to permit it to operate.
> > > >"
>
> An elegant and probably correct explanation!  I
> guess I'd add to my previous suggestion: unplug
> and replug the EC Module, and any others you can
> find in there!  - With battery disconnected of course!
>
> Fiddling with electronics often works!  I think they're all female...  (oops!)
>


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Re: Classic EFI 500cc starting and running issue

Vinci Raposo
In reply to this post by Dave Murray-2
I've often hugged my bike. For just being there!


--- In [hidden email], "Dave Murray" <redhawk34@...> wrote:

>
> "It sounds to me as though  the fuel pump is not being commanded to
> run by the PCM (power control module). Upon turning the ignition key to "on"
> the PCM will energize the fuel pump for two seconds so that the fuel injection
> system may be brought up to operating pressure. The PCM then shuts down the fuel
> pump until it gets a "tach signal" from the engine. This tach "signal" confirms
> to the PCM that the engine is running and so that the PCM can  resume
> supplying current to the fuel pump to permit it to operate.
> > >"
>
> Man, I just walked over and hugged my two carbed bikes!
> DWM
>
> "In Var, only dot vitch is simple can succeed. Vot I saw today at the Kavallerie School vas not simple!"
> Erwin Rommel (Then a Colonel)



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Re: Classic EFI 500cc starting and running issue

Royalenfield
In reply to this post by bulletwallas.india
The sealing of the air box is an abortion. Run electrical insulation tape around the outside to stop air from entering the gaps.
I presume that your bike does NOT have the exhaust sensor?
Which is part of your problem and unresolvable. (the factory can be total idiots at times...)
Ditch the stock spark plug and try the equivalent to an NGK BPR8ES
Is the inlet tappet clearance correct?
Is the Auto valve lifter working correctly, they have been know to fail...
ANY oil/kero or diesel in the petrol will give you problems by slowing down the combustion rate. Any trace of contaminated fuel in the system will cause problems, as too will the 'varnish' residues from evaporated petrol.
Fit a new fuel filter.
By and large the problems that you face will be continuous until an exhaust gas sensor is fitted...
:-(


Tim
N.Z.




--- In [hidden email], "Bullet" <bulletwallas.india@...> wrote:

>
> I have in my workshop an EFI export model 500cc with no kick start.  I have been doing some custom work on the mudguard and tannes for a customer.  the bike has hardly been used in the past 5 months.  We do not work on these bikes mechanically.
>
> When we received the bike it was running fine and it sat with us for a few weeks whle some body work was being done. when we started the bike the low fuel level indicator showed and the bike would run for 500m and then stop.  it sounded like a tractor. Pushed it back to the workshop started it and off for another 500m run, then stop again.
>
> The owner told me that he has not been putting much fuel in for the past 6 months, maybe 3 litres at a time.
>
> Well anyway, we have cleaned the tank, replaced the fuel, added some injector clean additive and started the bike.  it now only runs for 2 seconds and then dies.  Spark plug is rich, black.
>
> We removed the throttle controller to check for contamination, there was black film at the butterfly valve. Cleaned and reassembled.
>
> We noted that the decompressor/starter cable connection into the throttle controller was loose, in fact the plastic holder's thread was pretty much finished.  So many parts right next to it that plastic is not a great option to use.  so we removed the cable, spring and plunger and with plumbers tape sealed the plastic holder back in position just to seal the area off.  Note that this plastic fitting will have a high failure rate, source some spares to have on hand when needed.
>
> On starting the very same effect, running for 2 seconds only.
>
> We cannot find any information on the controller body, we have a service manual and parts manual which show pictures of the unit but no detail on any part of it.
>
> Would really appreciate any feed back on how to get this machine running smoothly again.
>
> thanks   Chris
>


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Re: Classic EFI 500cc starting and running issue

Royalenfield
In reply to this post by bulletwallas.india
Hi Chris
I have just uploaded a file that may be of help to you...
EFI Bullet
Contained within is some brief info on Fault finding the EFI system, BUT your domestic market bike does not have the exhaust gas sensor, though the overall fault finding process remains the same.
The cost of the EFI testing equipment from the factory is stupidly expensive; it is far cheaper to by a dozen or so new ECU's than the test gear...

One point to consider: Is the Owner aware that any unauthorised repairs to his bike invalidates the warranty?

Tim
N.Z.




--- In [hidden email], "Bullet" <bulletwallas.india@...> wrote:
>
> I have in my workshop an EFI export model 500cc with no kick start.  

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Re: Classic EFI 500cc starting and running issue

Bullet-3
Ki Ora Tim,

This bike is in fact an export model and does have some sensors that the local ones don't have. All of the local bikes from what I have seen still have kick start, this one is purely electric start.

The owner is a design engineer with Eicher and RE Chennai have been providing great support for his customising project.

To date the front sprocket has been changed to a 19 tooth and off set by 4 mm to give chain clearance to the 15" 140 tyre.  The swing arm has been lengthened, mudguard and tannes custom made.

Thanks for the trouble shooting file, the info in their manuals is crap.

Chris

--- In [hidden email], "timbusby" <royalenfield@...> wrote:

>
> Hi Chris
> I have just uploaded a file that may be of help to you...
> EFI Bullet
> Contained within is some brief info on Fault finding the EFI system, BUT your domestic market bike does not have the exhaust gas sensor, though the overall fault finding process remains the same.
> The cost of the EFI testing equipment from the factory is stupidly expensive; it is far cheaper to by a dozen or so new ECU's than the test gear...
>
> One point to consider: Is the Owner aware that any unauthorised repairs to his bike invalidates the warranty?
>
> Tim
> N.Z.
>
>
>
>
> --- In [hidden email], "Bullet" <bulletwallas.india@> wrote:
> >
> > I have in my workshop an EFI export model 500cc with no kick start.
>


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Re: Classic EFI 500cc starting and running issue

Bullet-3
Hi Tim,

So many things, connectors and seemingly important bits not mentioned in the trouble shooting guide, though as it was for the Electra and this EFI Classic 500 is the top of the line model probably a real trouble shooting guide that suits this bike has not been produced yet.

Chris

--- In [hidden email], "Bullet" <chris.bulletwallas@...> wrote:

>
> Ki Ora Tim,
>
> This bike is in fact an export model and does have some sensors that the local ones don't have. All of the local bikes from what I have seen still have kick start, this one is purely electric start.
>
> The owner is a design engineer with Eicher and RE Chennai have been providing great support for his customising project.
>
> To date the front sprocket has been changed to a 19 tooth and off set by 4 mm to give chain clearance to the 15" 140 tyre.  The swing arm has been lengthened, mudguard and tannes custom made.
>
> Thanks for the trouble shooting file, the info in their manuals is crap.
>
> Chris
>
> --- In [hidden email], "timbusby" <royalenfield@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Chris
> > I have just uploaded a file that may be of help to you...
> > EFI Bullet
> > Contained within is some brief info on Fault finding the EFI system, BUT your domestic market bike does not have the exhaust gas sensor, though the overall fault finding process remains the same.
> > The cost of the EFI testing equipment from the factory is stupidly expensive; it is far cheaper to by a dozen or so new ECU's than the test gear...
> >
> > One point to consider: Is the Owner aware that any unauthorised repairs to his bike invalidates the warranty?
> >
> > Tim
> > N.Z.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In [hidden email], "Bullet" <bulletwallas.india@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I have in my workshop an EFI export model 500cc with no kick start.
> >
>


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Re: Classic EFI 500cc starting and running issue

Bullet-3
Wanted to attach a photo of the connector that was the focus of the
problem but it seems there is no option to attach to message.
--- In [hidden email], "Bullet" <chris.bulletwallas@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi Tim,
>
> So many things, connectors and seemingly important bits not mentioned
in the trouble shooting guide, though as it was for the Electra and this
EFI Classic 500 is the top of the line model probably a real trouble
shooting guide that suits this bike has not been produced yet.
>
> Chris
>
> --- In [hidden email], "Bullet" chris.bulletwallas@
wrote:
> >
> > Ki Ora Tim,
> >
> > This bike is in fact an export model and does have some sensors that
the local ones don't have. All of the local bikes from what I have seen
still have kick start, this one is purely electric start.
> >
> > The owner is a design engineer with Eicher and RE Chennai have been
providing great support for his customising project.
> >
> > To date the front sprocket has been changed to a 19 tooth and off
set by 4 mm to give chain clearance to the 15" 140 tyre.  The swing arm
has been lengthened, mudguard and tannes custom made.
> >
> > Thanks for the trouble shooting file, the info in their manuals is
crap.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > --- In [hidden email], "timbusby" <royalenfield@>
wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Chris
> > > I have just uploaded a file that may be of help to you...
> > > EFI Bullet
> > > Contained within is some brief info on Fault finding the EFI
system, BUT your domestic market bike does not have the exhaust gas
sensor, though the overall fault finding process remains the same.
> > > The cost of the EFI testing equipment from the factory is stupidly
expensive; it is far cheaper to by a dozen or so new ECU's than the test
gear...
> > >
> > > One point to consider: Is the Owner aware that any unauthorised
repairs to his bike invalidates the warranty?
> > >
> > > Tim
> > > N.Z.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In [hidden email], "Bullet"
<bulletwallas.india@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I have in my workshop an EFI export model 500cc with no kick
start.
> > >
> >
>

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Re: Re: Classic EFI 500cc starting and running issue

Pete Snidal
At 11:04 PM 7/23/2011,Chris wrote:
>Wanted to attach a photo of the connector that was the focus of the
>problem but it seems there is no option to attach to message.

They sometimes get through when embedded into the posting
itself.  Best bet though is to go to the yahoogroup website files or
photos area and upload.  www.yahoogroups.com/group/royalenfield


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Re: Classic EFI 500cc starting and running issue

Royalenfield
In reply to this post by Bullet-3
If it DOES have the lambda sensor, burning oil, or contaminated fuel will effect it.
Make sure that it is clean!
A soot encrusted lambda exhaust gas sensor, or a damaged one, will play havoc with the mixture.

Tim
N.Z.

--- In [hidden email], "Bullet" <chris.bulletwallas@...> wrote:
>
> Ki Ora Tim,
>
> This bike is in fact an export model and does have some sensors that the local ones don't have.

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Re: Classic EFI 500cc starting and running issue

Royalenfield
In reply to this post by Bullet-3
What did you expect from RE when it comes to a trouble shooting guide?
Have you read the circa 2003 Bullet workshop manual?
Of the Electra X one?

Export EFI Electra and Classic; one and the same, styling matters are the only difference.

Tim
N.Z.
 

--- In [hidden email], "Bullet" <chris.bulletwallas@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Tim,
>
> So many things, connectors and seemingly important bits not mentioned in the trouble shooting guide, though as it was for the Electra and this EFI Classic 500 is the top of the line model probably a real trouble shooting guide that suits this bike has not been produced yet.
>
> Chris

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