Electric start problem

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Electric start problem

BRADUSM3
Bullet 500 Iron cylinder.
Solenoid clicks, no Voltage at starter terminal.
BUT when I operate the kick starter a bit, 1 stroke, the starter gets 12V, spins and starts.  Thought motor was not grounded, but not the case??
Brad Marshall

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Re: Electric start problem

Al-101
Your problem has one of two possible causes.
 
. A clicking  relay (solinoid) usually means that it is completing the high current circuit but the only way to be sure is to test the relay by disconnecting the red wire at the relay.And then while someone presses the starter button, place one lead of your VOM  on that now unused relay terminal and the other connector on chassis ground. With starter button pressed the VOM resisitance reading should be very close to zero or just a very few ohms as the relay emits a click. Such a reading indicates the desired closing of the relay's contacts. 

 Should the relay test "good", clean the cable ends that connect to the relay and the starter.

 Now all that said, I suspect that your problems resides inside the starter motor. I would inspect the starter's  carbon brushes for excessive wear or for them not moving down in their holders and as a result failing to make contact with cummutator. 

 Keep us informed as the sharing of your experience will helpful to tothers


Al in Philadelphia




From: usmikro2000 <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Wednesday, September 7, 2011 5:20 PM
Subject: [Enfield] Electric start problem


 
Bullet 500 Iron cylinder.
Solenoid clicks, no Voltage at starter terminal.
BUT when I operate the kick starter a bit, 1 stroke, the starter gets 12V, spins and starts. Thought motor was not grounded, but not the case??
Brad Marshall


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Re: Electric start problem

Al-101
P.S. Rapping on the starter motor with a small hammer can sometimes help the brushes move down in their holder and thus make proper contact with the commutator. 


    Al in Philadelphia
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Re: Electric start problem

Pete Snidal
In reply to this post by BRADUSM3

>Solenoid clicks, no Voltage at starter terminal.

Could be shorted starter at that one point, but most likely
solenoid.  Direct jump from battery to starter terminal during this
condition will tell you for sure.
ps www.enfield.20m.com


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Re: Electric start problem

BRADUSM3
In reply to this post by BRADUSM3
Al,
What mystified me was that it would only start after pushing the kick  
starter a bit.
Brushes not a problem.  Ground not a problem.
Solenoid seemed to work, it clicked (but not SNAP!), but the output  was  
0V, while the battery V was 11.92.  When kick moved the  solenoid drive went
from 8V to 11V, so it was following the point  closure.  Seems that the
solenoid drive coil is connected to some point  which drops when coil is
activated, like there is a series drop.
So I guess that next I need to open the starter switch, etc.
Brad in TX
 
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Re: Re: Electric start problem

Al-101
Pete gave a good suggestion and that was to jump the solenoid's battery connection terminal to the terminal  which leads to the  starter motor. In doing this you are actual performing the function of the starter relay. When doing this the starter should spin if only slowly. I say slowly because at 11.92V it is about 80% undercharged,  ie. severely discharged. If the starter now fails to make any effort at turning, the problem is located within the starter motor itself.

 Be very sure the bike is in neutral before jumping the relay terminals. One cable from a pair of automobile jumper cables should suffice. If the cable clamps are too big to approach the relay, place something like a screwdriver blade in each jaw to enable you to complete the bridging.

  Al




From: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2011 4:52 PM
Subject: [Enfield] Re: Electric start problem


 
Al,
What mystified me was that it would only start after pushing the kick starter a bit.
Brushes not a problem.  Ground not a problem.
Solenoid seemed to work, it clicked (but not SNAP!), but the output was  0V, while the battery V was 11.92.  When kick moved the solenoid drive went from 8V to 11V, so it was following the point closure.  Seems that the solenoid drive coil is connected to some point which drops when coil is activated, like there is a series drop.
So I guess that next I need to open the starter switch, etc.
Brad in TX

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Re: Re: Electric start problem

Al-101
http://www.dansmc.com/exploded_starters.htm


http://www.dansmc.com/electric_starters.htm


Brad, these links are to a web site containing motorcycle repair information. The two links will take you to chapters on starter motors. I know this might be more than you wish to chew upon completely butthere might be some specific  information that is helpful.

   Al
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Re: Electric start problem

Bare-2
In reply to this post by BRADUSM3


--- In [hidden email], BRADUSM3@... wrote:

>
> Al,
> What mystified me was that it would only start after pushing the kick  
> starter a bit.
> Brushes not a problem.  Ground not a problem.
> Solenoid seemed to work, it clicked (but not SNAP!), but the output  was  
> 0V, while the battery V was 11.92.  When kick moved the  solenoid drive went
> from 8V to 11V, so it was following the point  closure.  Seems that the
> solenoid drive coil is connected to some point  which drops when coil is
> activated, like there is a series drop.
> So I guess that next I need to open the starter switch, etc.
> Brad in TX
>


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Re: Electric start problem

Bare-2
In reply to this post by BRADUSM3

Let's go back to the battery for a sec. Turn on your lights. What kind of voltage is your battery putting out? If it's under 10V Your battery is wack. You mentioned it dropped to 8V in some condition.
The reason the the engine will turn over after you have shoved the kickstarter a bit is that you just moved the piston past TDC. The battery doesn't have enough energy to push the piston over the compressed mixture.  
If the solenoid clicks, it works. Check the voltage going to the battery (the big wires) with the starter button pushed, both sides of the solenoid, the voltage should be the same, but it should also be over 11V. If it's not that high, the battery is the problem. If there is any significant difference in the voltage going through the solenoid, it could be the problem. We've already discounted the starter since it works. My bet, it's the battery. The switch seems OK as the starter works.
You guys make this electrical stuff much too complicated.
The smoke goes pretty much to the offending gadget, follow the smoke and first determine if the gadget supplying the smoke is adequate. Hte starter road is pretty straight, some of the other could have a few detours, but it's still not all that complicated. If it is go down that road to the gadget and to the intervening and see where the smoke is escaping or dammed up!
Bare


--- In [hidden email], BRADUSM3@... wrote:

>
> Al,
> What mystified me was that it would only start after pushing the kick  
> starter a bit.
> Brushes not a problem.  Ground not a problem.
> Solenoid seemed to work, it clicked (but not SNAP!), but the output  was  
> 0V, while the battery V was 11.92.  When kick moved the  solenoid drive went
> from 8V to 11V, so it was following the point  closure.  Seems that the
> solenoid drive coil is connected to some point  which drops when coil is
> activated, like there is a series drop.
> So I guess that next I need to open the starter switch, etc.
> Brad in TX
>


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Re: Electric start problem

Royalenfield
In reply to this post by BRADUSM3
The starter motors themselves rarely give any problems.
The relay (solenoid) is notorious for failing prematurely from moisture damage! Get a replacement solenoid from off a Jet ski; they have better moisture resistance.
Next common 'fault' is poor electrical contact (oxidation corrosion) of the main cable onto the starter motor...

Tim
N.Z.


--- In [hidden email], "usmikro2000" <BRADUSM3@...> wrote:
>
> Bullet 500 Iron cylinder.
> Solenoid clicks, no Voltage at starter terminal.
> BUT when I operate the kick starter a bit, 1 stroke, the starter gets 12V, spins and starts.  Thought motor was not grounded, but not the case??
> Brad Marshall
>


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Re: Electric start problem

BRADUSM3
In reply to this post by BRADUSM3
Starter OK, Solenoid OK, bolted connections to batt/solenoid OK, battery  
OK.
The problem is that the solenoid drive V is too low when the points close,  
due to an IxR drop in the starter switch to solenoid drive circuit.  There  
is some resistance in the points / solenoid line, while the Vbatt and
solenoid  input is still 12V.  This is a marginal situation as it will start  
sometimes W/O getting the points open.  Ohm's law, Kirchof's law, open ckt  V,
short ckt current concepts have been applied here.
Solutions :  
1.  Rip the wiring apart to get the starter switch connected to Vbatt,  
independent from points draw.
2.  Get the points open before hitting the starter switch, using the  
kicker.
BTW we have a 1400 mile ride to Big Bend in TX, 8 days on Brit Single  
bikes.
Brad in TX
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Re: Re: Electric start problem

Al-101
Brad, I'm beginning to suspect that your problem is quite simply a defective and/or undercharged battery. A fully charged lead-acid battery should read 12.6V at he terminals with no load imposed. You previously told us that your terminal voltage was below 12 with no load. That low voltage drops even further when the the starter button attempts to energize the relay.  It is vital that your perform a voltage drop test before you do anything else. I suspect that it will reveal a your battery to be both undercharged and also incapable of supplying and adequate voltage to the starter.   And by the way, have you taken my advice to charge and then connect the battery directly to the starter?

The points are not in series with the relay but rather in parallel. Never the less  the points, when closed, do impose a load on the battery . This load further draws down battery voltage.

 I don't beleive that your problem is at all involved and does not call for anything more drastic than charging and/or replacing the battery.


     Al

From: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2011 9:00 PM
Subject: [Enfield] Re: Electric start problem


 
Starter OK, Solenoid OK, bolted connections to baat/solenoid OK, battery OK.
The problem is that the solenoid drive V is too low when the points close, due to an IR drop in the starter switch to solenoid drive circuit.  There is some resistance in the points / solenoid line, while the Bat and solenoid input is still 12V.  This is a marginal situation as it will start sometimes W/O getting the points open.  Ohm's law, Kirchoff's law, open ckt V, short ckt current concepts have been applied here.
Solutions : 
1.  Rip the wiring apart to get the starter switch connected to Vbat, independent from points draw.
2.  Get the points open before hitting the starter switch, using the kicker.
BTW we have a 1400 mile ride to Big Bend in TX, 8 days on Brit Single bikes.
Brad in TX
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Re: Electric start problem

BRADUSM3
In reply to this post by BRADUSM3
Al,
Let me try again to explain.Switch is on, battery just charged.
Points open:  Vbatt=12.1V, drive for solenoid is  11.1V open ckt (not
connected to solenoid)  Connect to solenoid, If I  hit start switch, it starts.
 
Points Closed: Vbatt=12.08V, drive for solenoid is 8.34V open ckt (not  
connected to solenoid) Connect to solenoid. If I hit start switch, it will not  
start, solenoid does not energise.
 
Brad.
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Re: Re: Electric start problem

Pete Snidal
At 03:50 PM 9/12/2011, you wrote:


>Al,
>Let me try again to explain.Switch is on, battery just charged.
>Points open:  Vbatt=12.1V, drive for solenoid is 11.1V open ckt (not
>connected to solenoid)  Connect to solenoid, If I hit start switch, it starts.
>
>Points Closed: Vbatt=12.08V, drive for solenoid is 8.34V open ckt
>(not connected to solenoid) Connect to solenoid. If I hit start
>switch, it will not start, solenoid does not energise.
>
>Brad.

What does your ammeter say when your points close?

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Re: Re: More for Brad: Electric start problem

Pete Snidal
In reply to this post by BRADUSM3

>Points open:  Vbatt=12.1V, drive for solenoid is 11.1V open ckt

If by "drive," you mean the fat wire that connects to the big
terminal on the solenoid, its voltage should be the same as battery
voltage.  Since there's nothing else connected to that piece of the
circuit, it's hard to imagine what you must have for resistance to
pull it down.
I'd look hard at the connection to the battery terminal

>(not connected to solenoid)  Connect to solenoid, If I hit start
>switch, it starts.
>
>Points Closed: Vbatt=12.08V, drive for solenoid is 8.34V

What?  The voltage on the solenoid end of the bat-solenoid cable
should STILL be the same as the battery.  After all, you must be
checking bat voltage off the same terminal - aren't you?

What happens if you jump the connection from bat (+) to solenoid with
a piece of fairly big wire?  Should show you bat voltage regardless
of what's happening with the points.

I STILL think your bat's bagged - but I admit that doesn't explain
why it would spin the starter when the points are open.

This is better than Poirot! (grin)



>open ckt (not connected to solenoid) Connect to solenoid. If I hit
>start switch, it will not start, solenoid does not energise.
>
>Brad.
>
>
>

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Re: Re: Electric start problem

Al-101
In reply to this post by BRADUSM3
Brad sorry about the confusion which probably is the result in equal measure of your description and my poor decipherment skills.

First of all your battery is undercharged as 12.1V indicates about only 20% of capacity--- put real simply, you've got a problem with your battery. When you say the battery has been charged, I assume that you mean that a charger of some sort has been applied to it. Now this doesn't mean that the battery has accepted the charge. Your battery could be suffering from severe sulphation  or buckled and shorted plates. You definitely have a battery that is, if not the cause of your problem, at least in great part responsible.Remember the battery should read 12.6V at full charge  --now I know that a .6V difference may not seem like a lot but when we speak of a battery's state of charge it is a whole lot!

Let's look at the breaker points as a cause since you indicate that the points in the closed position cause the starter circuit to become inoperative.  The points simple open and close the ground connection of the 
 coil ground connection leg of the points and so it seems that your problem cannot reside there.  The coil's  positive feed, a red/white wire, comes off of the right-hand handlebar control.  High here  resistance could cause a significant voltage drop and so it would seem tho be worth your while to snoop about with  an ohm meter after the battery has been disconnected. A wiring diagram is essential for this and one can be found in the group's files section.   

An interesting test would be to "hot wire" the coil by connecting it's positive side directly to the battery (after having removed the red/white wire from the coil) and then starting the engine using the starter button. In doing this you would be temporarily eliminating any existing fault in the coil is positive feed.

It would also be worth your while to open the right-hand control for a close visual and electrical inspection as it contains both the starter button contacts and the kill-switch through current for the coil flows. A mechanical/electrical fault here could very well be the problem.

   Al

 

From: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2011 6:50 PM
Subject: [Enfield] Re: Electric start problem


 
Al,
Let me try again to explain.Switch is on, battery just charged.
Points open:  At=12.1V, drive for solenoid is 11.1V open ckt (not connected to solenoid)  Connect to solenoid, If I hit start switch, it starts.

Points Closed: Vbat=12.08V, drive for solenoid is 8.34V open ckt (not connected to solenoid) Connect to solenoid. If I hit start switch, it will not start, solenoid does not energise.

Brad.
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Re: Electric start problem

slacker381
In reply to this post by BRADUSM3
I know it doesn't solve the problem, but on my 2002 ES whenever I have this problem I can get past it by a quick flick on/off of the kill switch.  As soon as I have time I'll pull that control and check the condition of the contacts.

--- In [hidden email], BRADUSM3@... wrote:

>
> Al,
> Let me try again to explain.Switch is on, battery just charged.
> Points open:  Vbatt=12.1V, drive for solenoid is  11.1V open ckt (not
> connected to solenoid)  Connect to solenoid, If I  hit start switch, it starts.
>  
> Points Closed: Vbatt=12.08V, drive for solenoid is 8.34V open ckt (not  
> connected to solenoid) Connect to solenoid. If I hit start switch, it will not  
> start, solenoid does not energise.
>  
> Brad.
>


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Re: Electric start problem

BRADUSM3
In reply to this post by BRADUSM3
Pete, Al,
Pete, the points draw about 80% of the first division af the ammeter, but  
dont know full scale.  This amoount drops the solenoid dribeto 8.34V from  
12.1V.
 
Al, You have taught me about Vbatt, vs % charge.  I have worked in  
electronics and played with cars and bikes for decades.  Always assumed  that 12V
was a good Vbatt rearding.  After your comment today, I went to  Google and
read a paper with curves showing 12.6V is 100% and 12V is 20%  as you said.  
I will hook a DC power supply at  12.6V and see if the solenoid will pull
in.  The battery is clearly  marginal, since I did charge for sufficient time.
 The start issue has been  erratic since 1 year from new, but recently all
of the time.
Thanks, great help and education.
Brad
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Re: Re: Electric start problem

Al-101
Brad, the relay is not grounded to the chassis and so when you apply the power- supply be very sure that its negative clamp is directly connected to the relay's ground terminal and not chassis-ground.

  Good hunting!

        Al

From: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2011 5:06 PM
Subject: [Enfield] Re: Electric start problem


 
Pete, Al,
Pete, the points draw about 80% of the first division of the ammeter, but don't know full scale.  This amount drops the solenoid driver 8.34V from 12.1V.

Al, You have taught me about Vsat, vs % charge.  I have worked in electronics and played with cars and bikes for decades.  Always assumed that 12V was a good At reading.  After your comment today, I went to Google and read a paper with curves showing 12.6V is 100% and 12V is 20% as you said.  I will hook a DC power supply at 12.6V and see if the solenoid will pull in.  The battery is clearly marginal, since I did charge for sufficient time.  The start issue has been erratic since 1 year from new, but recently all of the time.
Thanks, great help and education.
Brad
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Re: Re: More for Brad: Electric start problem

Al-101
In reply to this post by Pete Snidal
Pete, that "fat wire" is brown and it connects the starter to the non-battery side of the relay rather than coming directly from the battery. A voltmeter  applied to the "fat wire" will read zero unless the starter button is pressed causing the control portion of the relay to become energized and thus closing the internal high current switch that then connects the battery to the "fat wire".

  Should the relay's high current switch's contacts become burnt, pitted, or worn, there could very well be a high resistance found in that circuit. The best way to test for this would be to measure the voltage drop across the relay from battery side to the switched side  --- the one to which the "fat wire" is connected.

   Al in Philadelphia


From: Pete Snidal <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2011 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Enfield] Re: More for Brad: Electric start problem


 

>Points open: At=12.1V, drive for solenoid is 11.1V open ckt

If by "drive," you mean the fat wire that connects to the big
terminal on the solenoid, its voltage should be the same as battery
voltage. Since there's nothing else connected to that piece of the
circuit, it's hard to imagine what you must have for resistance to
pull it down.
I'd look hard at the connection to the battery terminal

>(not connected to solenoid) Connect to solenoid, If I hit start
>switch, it starts.
>
>Points Closed: Vbat=12.08V, drive for solenoid is 8.34V

What? The voltage on the solenoid end of the bat-solenoid cable
should STILL be the same as the battery. After all, you must be
checking bat voltage off the same terminal - aren't you?

What happens if you jump the connection from bat (+) to solenoid with
a piece of fairly big wire? Should show you bat voltage regardless
of what's happening with the points.

I STILL think your bat's bagged - but I admit that doesn't explain
why it would spin the starter when the points are open.

This is better than Poirot! (grin)

>open ckt (not connected to solenoid) Connect to solenoid. If I hit
>start switch, it will not start, solenoid does not energise.
>
>Brad.
>
>
>


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