dead alternator?

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
24 messages Options
12
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

dead alternator?

patrickj_crum
Hi guys, haven't posted here in a LONG time.
I think my alternator is dead-
2002 iron bullet- 4 wire alternator.
With the engine running, I'm getting about 12 to 12.5 volts, off idle. It doesn't climb with the rpms, and never gets above 12.5
Battery charges and holds 12.9 volts if I plug it to a charger.
I checked across the purple leads and I'm getting about 1.1 ohms resistance with the multimeter set for 200.
Both the yellow and amber leads show continuity to earth- I don't think it's supposed to.

Before I plonk down $300 on a new one, I'd like you guys' opinion.

Cheers,
Pat


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: dead alternator?

Sali Rostami
 Pat, it's good to see back! I've noticed that you're quite active with the
"Brekkie at the Silver Ball" group but it's nice to see that you  know where to
turn for  mechanical advice. 

 It seems as though you have a problem with both the AC and DC output of your
alternator. This would cause me to look for a problem common to both. Perhaps
twisted and buggered electrical connection visible only with the primary cover
removed to reveal the four wires' connection th to their respective coils.

 If nothing suspicious is found, I would then check each system. The DC
dedicated coils' output should be about 20V AC measured with the voltage
regulator disconnected.  A lesser reading would indicated a problem with the DC
coils or their connections; this would warrant a snooping about with your ohm
meter. 

 I would suggest that you measure the resistance to ground of the yellow and
amber wires with them disconnected from the head lamp and AC regulator. This
would help you  identify or narrow the location of a possible short as being in
the alternator coil or the wiring/devices that it feeds.

 Pat,  these are just a few quick thoughts. There are those in group more
knowledgeable and I'm sure they too will offer a few suggestions as well.

 

  Al in Philadelphia

 




________________________________
From: patrickj_crum <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Sun, August 8, 2010 8:59:56 PM
Subject: [Enfield] dead alternator?

 
Hi guys, haven't posted here in a LONG time.
I think my alternator is dead-
2002 iron bullet- 4 wire alternator.
With the engine running, I'm getting about 12 to 12.5 volts, off idle. It
doesn't climb with the rpms, and never gets above 12.5
Battery charges and holds 12.9 volts if I plug it to a charger.
I checked across the purple leads and I'm getting about 1.1 ohms resistance with
the multimeter set for 200.

Both the yellow and amber leads show continuity to earth- I don't think it's
supposed to.


Before I plonk down $300 on a new one, I'd like you guys' opinion.

Cheers,
Pat





     
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: dead alternator?

Tom-413
In reply to this post by patrickj_crum
The manual I have says the Resistance between the violet (purple) leads should be 0.5-0.7 Ohms. Across the Yellow and Amber should be the same (0.5-0.7 Ohms). One of Kevins news letters says on the  400ohm scale – the results should be 1.3 ohms of resistance, depending on the internal resistance of YOUR particular DVOM, it could be 1.4 -1.6 ohms.
 If you get 1.1 you are probably good enough.

You are correct that the violet and Yellow leads should not have continuity to earth.  This may be your problem.

The Amber lead on my bike does have continuity to earth.

Across the yellow and Amber with headlights on at 2000 rpm the very minimum should be 13 volts.

Across the violet leads with the turn signals and stop lamp on at 2000 rpm you should have a very minimum output of 13 volts.

The infomation below is out of one of the early CMW newsletters from Kevin:

CHARGING CIRCUIT
As with ANY electrical problem or failure, one must start from the
SOURCE. Always be certain that the battery is FULLY charged and
that all connections are clean and tight. Also check source fuses
for continuity with a DVOM and check for corrosion on the fuse
holder connections. Never rely on the "eyeball test" for a fuse or
a bulb to determine whether it has failed – The DVOM doesn't lie!
After verifying that the battery's open circuit voltage is 12.7
(lower than 12.2 will need charging!) and that all connections are
clean and tight it is now time to see if the alternator's DC charging
set is functioning properly. Attach the DVOM leads to the battery
at the terminals and start the bike. Watch the bikes ammeter as
well. The ammeter should swing about ¾ of the way across the
gauge to the "+" side. Be suspicious if it doesn't go that far and
settles down toward the center after a bit of running. Now check
your DVOM. If it doesn't show AT LEAST 13.8VDC right off idle
(about 1500-1800rpm's max) you have a problem. Typical readings
should be over 14VDC.

To diagnose the charging set in the alternator you'll need to access
the four wires coming from the alternator into the bikes wiring
harness. There are two violet wires and one yellow and one orange
(called amber in the service literature ...) wires in this harness. The
violet wires are responsible for the generation of the two-phase AC
current that is rectified and regulated into 14VDC for the battery.
Disconnect the leads and measure the resistance between the two
violet leads into the alternator. Use a 400ohm scale – the result
should be 1.3 ohms of resistance, depending on the internal
resistance of YOUR particular DVOM, it could be 1.4 -1.6 ohms.
Less resistance means a shorted (truncated) winding and the
alternator will not generate the required AC voltage. MORE
resistance most likely means a burned or shorted to ground
winding and the alternator will not work properly. Check each lead
for continuity to ground at the engine case. There should be no
continuity – the circuit should show open. Now check for AC
voltage output with the engine running. CAUTION – You can
get a nasty shock from the AC system if you ground yourself
to bike whilst checking this – BE CAREFUL!

Place your DVOM across the disconnected violet leads from the
alternator set and check for AC voltage. The output needs to be
AT LEAST 50VAC at the previously mentioned off-idle setting. The
system will NOT work properly with as little as 47VAC. The electronic
regulator and rectifier are QUITE sensitive to this AC input – beware!
If the output is NOT at least 50VAC, the problem is in the alternator
set. These potential problems will be described later in the article.

If you have the 50VAC available at the rectifier (again – hook up the
wiring and VERIFY this with DVOM) and the battery still does not
charge, you'll need to look at the rectifier and the regulator
assemblies. The rectifier changes the AC current to DC by basically
"burning off" all the current that flows "away" from the battery and
allowing the "one way" current to go through. This essentially cuts
the alternator's generated current IN HALF! There is also a small
amount of current lost through heat and harness resistance. There
should be AT LEAST 22VDC going into the regulator from the rectifier.
If NOT, the rectifier is faulty. If the rectifier is allowing the proper
amount of input voltage to the regulator and the battery still will
not charge, the regulator is likely the culprit. VERIFY this by checking
regulator output at the regulator itself (thus eliminating the possibility
of the bad harness between the regulator output and the battery)
– it should be battery charging voltage. NOTE: ALWAYS be mindful
of engine heat during the running tests! Attach all test leads FIRST,
and then start the engine! Keep the running time short and keep a
fan on the engine at all times to reduce stress and heat on the engine!

LIGHTING CIRCUIT
After verifying that the lamps in the circuit are good with a DVOM
(or a new bulb …) the lighting circuit may be diagnosed in the same
manner as the charging circuit – only we will be doing the voltage
checks and ground checks on the YELLOW and the ORANGE (amber
in the service literature …) wires instead of the violet ones. The
resistance across the yellow and orange wires should be 1.3 ohms
on a 400 ohm scale. There should also be NO continuity to ground
at all in the windings. On the running test, there has to be at
LEAST 50VAC output to the AC regulator in order for it to "turn on"
and function properly. Again – if the regulator has the proper input
from the alternator and the lamps still do not illuminate – check
output AT the regulator, then at the bulb sockets themselves to
eliminate harness problems. If the AC regulator has the proper
input – but no output (it should be AT LEAST 14–18VAC) then
replace the AC regulator. Beware that occasionally there will be
an OVER-voltage situation if the AC regulator fails. This will blow
the elements in all (or most) of the bulbs on the bike. If you get
a bike with more than one bulb popped – use the DVOM to verify
socket voltage BEFORE replacing the bulbs!

CAUSES FOR FAILURE
We all know that open, shorted or high-resistance in the alternator's
charging or lighting windings will cause failures. These are the most
common types of failures – and are easy to verify with a little
checking using a good DVOM. Be aware that there "low output"
conditions that will NOT show up with a DVOM and a check of the
alternator windings. One common failure is from a weak permanent
magnet (rotor) piece. If the windings check OK and the output is
still low, suspect a weak rotor. Also – metallic debris from normal
clutch wear or a starter gear failure will attach itself to the magnet
and actually disrupt the magnetic field enough to cause a low
output condition. Be sure that if you find this, you completely
clean the magnetic rotor and all related parts. Also be sure that
the rotor isn't touching the stator winding at all during operation.
This will disrupt the magnetic field and cause the build-up of iron
filings as well. A good way to prevent this during assembly is to
cut a sleeve from an antifreeze jug or some other sturdy plastic
and wrap the rotor with a single layer of this whilst installing the
stator. This will center the stator and assure that it isn't touching
the rotor.

Also – if the stator is not centered on the rotor you will get
fluctuation in the ammeter due to more charging on one side
of the stator (the side closest to the magnetic rotor).

And finally – if you suspect that you DO have a low output
condition at the alternator and want to verify this before
teardown, as well as check the REST of the harness in the
bike – here is a little "cheater". Get a "known good" machine
and park it beside the suspect bike in such a way that you can
attach the four alternator output wires from the "good" bike
into the wiring harness of the "bad" bike and provide a ground
strap from one bike to the other. Start up the "good" bike. If
the harness and all the components in that harness on the
"bad" bike are well and good – the charging and lighting systems
on the "bad" bike will now be working as they should from the
alternator output of the "good" bike. Problem solved – tear down
the primary and look for the problem in the alternator!

(Editor's Note: As with all tech tips, don't do something stupid
and blow yourself and your garage up by not taking standard
precautions. These tips are just that - tips, not "Official
instructions" but rather "helping ideas" from others. We disclaim
all responsibility if you do something stupid or dangerous. There,
now our lawyer will be happy.)


--- In [hidden email], "patrickj_crum" <patrickcrum@...> wrote:

>
> Hi guys, haven't posted here in a LONG time.
> I think my alternator is dead-
> 2002 iron bullet- 4 wire alternator.
> With the engine running, I'm getting about 12 to 12.5 volts, off idle. It doesn't climb with the rpms, and never gets above 12.5
> Battery charges and holds 12.9 volts if I plug it to a charger.
> I checked across the purple leads and I'm getting about 1.1 ohms resistance with the multimeter set for 200.
> Both the yellow and amber leads show continuity to earth- I don't think it's supposed to.
>
> Before I plonk down $300 on a new one, I'd like you guys' opinion.
>
> Cheers,
> Pat
>


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: dead alternator?

autofcs
$300 for a new alternator?!?!? It costs approximately $25 in India!!

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Re: dead alternator?

lee eldridge
In reply to this post by Tom-413
Guys,

 make sure you short the test leads together to find out what their resistance is. It is common for this to be ~0.6 ohms. Thus if you measured 1.4 ohms then the coil resistance could be 1.4 - 0.6 = 0.8 ohms. It is really hard to accurately measure resistance at this low a value. If you are serious you need to get a "Low ohms" meter.


On 09/08/2010, at 12:37 PM, mrunderhill1975a wrote:

> The manual I have says the Resistance between the violet (purple) leads should be 0.5-0.7 Ohms. Across the Yellow and Amber should be the same (0.5-0.7 Ohms). One of Kevins news letters says on the 400ohm scale – the results should be 1.3 ohms of resistance, depending on the internal resistance of YOUR particular DVOM, it could be 1.4 -1.6 ohms.
> If you get 1.1 you are probably good enough.
>
> You are correct that the violet and Yellow leads should not have continuity to earth. This may be your problem.
>
> The Amber lead on my bike does have continuity to earth.
>
> Across the yellow and Amber with headlights on at 2000 rpm the very minimum should be 13 volts.
>
> Across the violet leads with the turn signals and stop lamp on at 2000 rpm you should have a very minimum output of 13 volts.
>
> The infomation below is out of one of the early CMW newsletters from Kevin:
>
> CHARGING CIRCUIT
> As with ANY electrical problem or failure, one must start from the
> SOURCE. Always be certain that the battery is FULLY charged and
> that all connections are clean and tight. Also check source fuses
> for continuity with a DVOM and check for corrosion on the fuse
> holder connections. Never rely on the "eyeball test" for a fuse or
> a bulb to determine whether it has failed – The DVOM doesn't lie!
> After verifying that the battery's open circuit voltage is 12.7
> (lower than 12.2 will need charging!) and that all connections are
> clean and tight it is now time to see if the alternator's DC charging
> set is functioning properly. Attach the DVOM leads to the battery
> at the terminals and start the bike. Watch the bikes ammeter as
> well. The ammeter should swing about ¾ of the way across the
> gauge to the "+" side. Be suspicious if it doesn't go that far and
> settles down toward the center after a bit of running. Now check
> your DVOM. If it doesn't show AT LEAST 13.8VDC right off idle
> (about 1500-1800rpm's max) you have a problem. Typical readings
> should be over 14VDC.
>
> To diagnose the charging set in the alternator you'll need to access
> the four wires coming from the alternator into the bikes wiring
> harness. There are two violet wires and one yellow and one orange
> (called amber in the service literature ...) wires in this harness. The
> violet wires are responsible for the generation of the two-phase AC
> current that is rectified and regulated into 14VDC for the battery.
> Disconnect the leads and measure the resistance between the two
> violet leads into the alternator. Use a 400ohm scale – the result
> should be 1.3 ohms of resistance, depending on the internal
> resistance of YOUR particular DVOM, it could be 1.4 -1.6 ohms.
> Less resistance means a shorted (truncated) winding and the
> alternator will not generate the required AC voltage. MORE
> resistance most likely means a burned or shorted to ground
> winding and the alternator will not work properly. Check each lead
> for continuity to ground at the engine case. There should be no
> continuity – the circuit should show open. Now check for AC
> voltage output with the engine running. CAUTION – You can
> get a nasty shock from the AC system if you ground yourself
> to bike whilst checking this – BE CAREFUL!
>
> Place your DVOM across the disconnected violet leads from the
> alternator set and check for AC voltage. The output needs to be
> AT LEAST 50VAC at the previously mentioned off-idle setting. The
> system will NOT work properly with as little as 47VAC. The electronic
> regulator and rectifier are QUITE sensitive to this AC input – beware!
> If the output is NOT at least 50VAC, the problem is in the alternator
> set. These potential problems will be described later in the article.
>
> If you have the 50VAC available at the rectifier (again – hook up the
> wiring and VERIFY this with DVOM) and the battery still does not
> charge, you'll need to look at the rectifier and the regulator
> assemblies. The rectifier changes the AC current to DC by basically
> "burning off" all the current that flows "away" from the battery and
> allowing the "one way" current to go through. This essentially cuts
> the alternator's generated current IN HALF! There is also a small
> amount of current lost through heat and harness resistance. There
> should be AT LEAST 22VDC going into the regulator from the rectifier.
> If NOT, the rectifier is faulty. If the rectifier is allowing the proper
> amount of input voltage to the regulator and the battery still will
> not charge, the regulator is likely the culprit. VERIFY this by checking
> regulator output at the regulator itself (thus eliminating the possibility
> of the bad harness between the regulator output and the battery)
> – it should be battery charging voltage. NOTE: ALWAYS be mindful
> of engine heat during the running tests! Attach all test leads FIRST,
> and then start the engine! Keep the running time short and keep a
> fan on the engine at all times to reduce stress and heat on the engine!
>
> LIGHTING CIRCUIT
> After verifying that the lamps in the circuit are good with a DVOM
> (or a new bulb …) the lighting circuit may be diagnosed in the same
> manner as the charging circuit – only we will be doing the voltage
> checks and ground checks on the YELLOW and the ORANGE (amber
> in the service literature …) wires instead of the violet ones. The
> resistance across the yellow and orange wires should be 1.3 ohms
> on a 400 ohm scale. There should also be NO continuity to ground
> at all in the windings. On the running test, there has to be at
> LEAST 50VAC output to the AC regulator in order for it to "turn on"
> and function properly. Again – if the regulator has the proper input
> from the alternator and the lamps still do not illuminate – check
> output AT the regulator, then at the bulb sockets themselves to
> eliminate harness problems. If the AC regulator has the proper
> input – but no output (it should be AT LEAST 14–18VAC) then
> replace the AC regulator. Beware that occasionally there will be
> an OVER-voltage situation if the AC regulator fails. This will blow
> the elements in all (or most) of the bulbs on the bike. If you get
> a bike with more than one bulb popped – use the DVOM to verify
> socket voltage BEFORE replacing the bulbs!
>
> CAUSES FOR FAILURE
> We all know that open, shorted or high-resistance in the alternator's
> charging or lighting windings will cause failures. These are the most
> common types of failures – and are easy to verify with a little
> checking using a good DVOM. Be aware that there "low output"
> conditions that will NOT show up with a DVOM and a check of the
> alternator windings. One common failure is from a weak permanent
> magnet (rotor) piece. If the windings check OK and the output is
> still low, suspect a weak rotor. Also – metallic debris from normal
> clutch wear or a starter gear failure will attach itself to the magnet
> and actually disrupt the magnetic field enough to cause a low
> output condition. Be sure that if you find this, you completely
> clean the magnetic rotor and all related parts. Also be sure that
> the rotor isn't touching the stator winding at all during operation.
> This will disrupt the magnetic field and cause the build-up of iron
> filings as well. A good way to prevent this during assembly is to
> cut a sleeve from an antifreeze jug or some other sturdy plastic
> and wrap the rotor with a single layer of this whilst installing the
> stator. This will center the stator and assure that it isn't touching
> the rotor.
>
> Also – if the stator is not centered on the rotor you will get
> fluctuation in the ammeter due to more charging on one side
> of the stator (the side closest to the magnetic rotor).
>
> And finally – if you suspect that you DO have a low output
> condition at the alternator and want to verify this before
> teardown, as well as check the REST of the harness in the
> bike – here is a little "cheater". Get a "known good" machine
> and park it beside the suspect bike in such a way that you can
> attach the four alternator output wires from the "good" bike
> into the wiring harness of the "bad" bike and provide a ground
> strap from one bike to the other. Start up the "good" bike. If
> the harness and all the components in that harness on the
> "bad" bike are well and good – the charging and lighting systems
> on the "bad" bike will now be working as they should from the
> alternator output of the "good" bike. Problem solved – tear down
> the primary and look for the problem in the alternator!
>
> (Editor's Note: As with all tech tips, don't do something stupid
> and blow yourself and your garage up by not taking standard
> precautions. These tips are just that - tips, not "Official
> instructions" but rather "helping ideas" from others. We disclaim
> all responsibility if you do something stupid or dangerous. There,
> now our lawyer will be happy.)
>
> --- In [hidden email], "patrickj_crum" <patrickcrum@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi guys, haven't posted here in a LONG time.
> > I think my alternator is dead-
> > 2002 iron bullet- 4 wire alternator.
> > With the engine running, I'm getting about 12 to 12.5 volts, off idle. It doesn't climb with the rpms, and never gets above 12.5
> > Battery charges and holds 12.9 volts if I plug it to a charger.
> > I checked across the purple leads and I'm getting about 1.1 ohms resistance with the multimeter set for 200.
> > Both the yellow and amber leads show continuity to earth- I don't think it's supposed to.
> >
> > Before I plonk down $300 on a new one, I'd like you guys' opinion.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Pat
> >
>
>

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Re: dead alternator?

lee eldridge
In reply to this post by autofcs
times 10 seems to be a constant factor in converting to western prices from India prices.


On 09/08/2010, at 2:45 PM, autofcs wrote:

> $300 for a new alternator?!?!? It costs approximately $25 in India!!
>
>

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Re: dead alternator?

Pete Snidal
In reply to this post by lee eldridge

>  It is really hard to accurately measure resistance at this low a
> value. If you are serious you need to get a "Low ohms" meter.

Precisely why I've always advocated testing output with a load and
voltmeter.  If your two purples will drive a high-beam and maintain a
voltage of >16-18VAC, then you know you have a set of charging coils
that will keep your battery up, properly rectified of course.  Ditto
in its way for the AC output for the lights.  If not in either case,
it's time to rewind or replace - that's really all you have to know.

It IS important, though, imo, to do your checks connecting directly
to alternator output lines at the chaincase.  - ie eliminate leads
and connections between alt and loads.
ps www.enfield.20m.com

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: dead alternator?

patrickj_crum
Thanks Guys!
I actually found that same note from Kevin on another messageboard which I used as a basis for my first diagnosis. Unfortunately I do not have a 400ohm setting on my meter. I'm out of town right now, but when I get home I'm going to look into this more. I'm testing the leads directly off the alternator- disconnected from the harness. one thig I didn't do was check the actual wires where they pass through the primary- the original grommet deteriorated years ago, and I replaced it with a big gob of RTV- I'm curious if maybe it has worn and a short developed there.
I'll let you know what I find out.
Cheers,
Pat



--- In [hidden email], Pete Snidal <snidey@...> wrote:

>
>
> >  It is really hard to accurately measure resistance at this low a
> > value. If you are serious you need to get a "Low ohms" meter.
>
> Precisely why I've always advocated testing output with a load and
> voltmeter.  If your two purples will drive a high-beam and maintain a
> voltage of >16-18VAC, then you know you have a set of charging coils
> that will keep your battery up, properly rectified of course.  Ditto
> in its way for the AC output for the lights.  If not in either case,
> it's time to rewind or replace - that's really all you have to know.
>
> It IS important, though, imo, to do your checks connecting directly
> to alternator output lines at the chaincase.  - ie eliminate leads
> and connections between alt and loads.
> ps www.enfield.20m.com
>


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Re: dead alternator?

lee eldridge
Curious about a 400 ohm setting. Most meters have ranges that say have Ohms (range that measures lowest values of resistance) and typically will measure from an ohm up to a 1000 ohms, Kohms (middle range Kiloohms), M ohms (measures highest values of resistance-Megaohms)

RTV you need to be careful with It does not like oil and petrol. It is OK to 100C. When exposed to oil and petrol it swells and becomes soft and will often squidge  away. If you want to use it in bikes get the one that is designed for oil and petrol exposure. You are better to use a tape At least when the glue is washed away you still have the plastic fabric.  The tape you can wind just thick enough so the cable can be clamped in the orifice the cable goes through. My preference is to use heat shrink tubing. It tends to be very reliable. I have been using a tape recently called Amalgamating tape. You pull it thin and wrap it around the wires. It then welds to itself. Not strong but makes a good seal and is rubberry so provides some flex resistance. You can always wrap some electricians tape over it.

ANyone know of a tape that is resistant to oil and petrol?

On 12/08/2010, at 4:36 AM, patrickj_crum wrote:

> Thanks Guys!
> I actually found that same note from Kevin on another messageboard which I used as a basis for my first diagnosis. Unfortunately I do not have a 400ohm setting on my meter. I'm out of town right now, but when I get home I'm going to look into this more. I'm testing the leads directly off the alternator- disconnected from the harness. one thig I didn't do was check the actual wires where they pass through the primary- the original grommet deteriorated years ago, and I replaced it with a big gob of RTV- I'm curious if maybe it has worn and a short developed there.
> I'll let you know what I find out.
> Cheers,
> Pat
>
> --- In [hidden email], Pete Snidal <snidey@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > > It is really hard to accurately measure resistance at this low a
> > > value. If you are serious you need to get a "Low ohms" meter.
> >
> > Precisely why I've always advocated testing output with a load and
> > voltmeter. If your two purples will drive a high-beam and maintain a
> > voltage of >16-18VAC, then you know you have a set of charging coils
> > that will keep your battery up, properly rectified of course. Ditto
> > in its way for the AC output for the lights. If not in either case,
> > it's time to rewind or replace - that's really all you have to know.
> >
> > It IS important, though, imo, to do your checks connecting directly
> > to alternator output lines at the chaincase. - ie eliminate leads
> > and connections between alt and loads.
> > ps www.enfield.20m.com
> >
>
>

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

(unknown)

d.balaji Balu



 



 





Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: dead alternator?

Vinci Raposo
In reply to this post by lee eldridge
Plumber's tape possibly.




--- In [hidden email], lee eldridge <egdirdle@...> wrote:

> ANyone know of a tape that is resistant to oil and petrol?



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Re: dead alternator?

Wayne and Mary Sue Duris
In reply to this post by patrickj_crum
You need heat shrink tube anywhere there is oil and he possibility of a short to ground.

Wayne in Ohio


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: dead alternator?

Dave Murray-2
In reply to this post by patrickj_crum
I lost the alternator after reassembling the motor. Took it apart and found that one of the mounting nut washers had crimped a winding wire, causing a dead short. I used a smaller washer, put a dollop of epoxy on the scraped insulation varnish, and all was well.  Inspect the unit closely, you might find something similar.
DWM

--- In [hidden email], "patrickj_crum" <patrickcrum@...> wrote:

>
> Hi guys, haven't posted here in a LONG time.
> I think my alternator is dead-
> 2002 iron bullet- 4 wire alternator.
> With the engine running, I'm getting about 12 to 12.5 volts, off idle. It doesn't climb with the rpms, and never gets above 12.5
> Battery charges and holds 12.9 volts if I plug it to a charger.
> I checked across the purple leads and I'm getting about 1.1 ohms resistance with the multimeter set for 200.
> Both the yellow and amber leads show continuity to earth- I don't think it's supposed to.
>
> Before I plonk down $300 on a new one, I'd like you guys' opinion.
>
> Cheers,
> Pat
>


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: dead alternator?

patrickj_crum
Thanks, I'm going to take a look tomorrow. I haven't touched it in about 5 or 6 years though.


--- In [hidden email], "Dave Murray" <redhawk34@...> wrote:

>
> I lost the alternator after reassembling the motor. Took it apart and found that one of the mounting nut washers had crimped a winding wire, causing a dead short. I used a smaller washer, put a dollop of epoxy on the scraped insulation varnish, and all was well.  Inspect the unit closely, you might find something similar.
> DWM
>
> --- In [hidden email], "patrickj_crum" <patrickcrum@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi guys, haven't posted here in a LONG time.
> > I think my alternator is dead-
> > 2002 iron bullet- 4 wire alternator.
> > With the engine running, I'm getting about 12 to 12.5 volts, off idle. It doesn't climb with the rpms, and never gets above 12.5
> > Battery charges and holds 12.9 volts if I plug it to a charger.
> > I checked across the purple leads and I'm getting about 1.1 ohms resistance with the multimeter set for 200.
> > Both the yellow and amber leads show continuity to earth- I don't think it's supposed to.
> >
> > Before I plonk down $300 on a new one, I'd like you guys' opinion.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Pat
> >
>


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Re: dead alternator?

lee eldridge
Not too late.

If the repair is possible then you will need to scrape the insulation off the wire anyway.

To solder, prep the wire by cleaning and applying a coat of solder to each piece (this is called tinning). If you can solder the wires together side by side rather than end to end. Place some very thing sheet between the wire and the rest of the wires and push the broken wires against it. Solder it. Make sure the surfaces are smooth, that the solder joint is made well. Place a dob of epoxy over the joint and heat it for 24 hours under a light lamp or in an open over set to low (heat helps set expoxy nice and hard. No more then 100C. 50-60C is really good.  If there is an over-goop that may rest on the block file it off so there is some clearance. This might be a better than new fix.


On 15/08/2010, at 7:46 AM, patrickj_crum wrote:

> Thanks, I'm going to take a look tomorrow. I haven't touched it in about 5 or 6 years though.
>
> --- In [hidden email], "Dave Murray" <redhawk34@...> wrote:
> >
> > I lost the alternator after reassembling the motor. Took it apart and found that one of the mounting nut washers had crimped a winding wire, causing a dead short. I used a smaller washer, put a dollop of epoxy on the scraped insulation varnish, and all was well. Inspect the unit closely, you might find something similar.
> > DWM
> >
> > --- In [hidden email], "patrickj_crum" <patrickcrum@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi guys, haven't posted here in a LONG time.
> > > I think my alternator is dead-
> > > 2002 iron bullet- 4 wire alternator.
> > > With the engine running, I'm getting about 12 to 12.5 volts, off idle. It doesn't climb with the rpms, and never gets above 12.5
> > > Battery charges and holds 12.9 volts if I plug it to a charger.
> > > I checked across the purple leads and I'm getting about 1.1 ohms resistance with the multimeter set for 200.
> > > Both the yellow and amber leads show continuity to earth- I don't think it's supposed to.
> > >
> > > Before I plonk down $300 on a new one, I'd like you guys' opinion.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Pat
> > >
> >
>
>

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: dead alternator?

patrickj_crum
i guess i should clarify- it has been working fine for the last 5-6 years, so I don't think I broke anything when I put it together.
Thanks though. If it turns out to be the harness, it doesn't sound like it will be too hard to repair/replace.
Cheers,
Pat

--- In [hidden email], lee eldridge <egdirdle@...> wrote:

>
> Not too late.
>
> If the repair is possible then you will need to scrape the insulation off the wire anyway.
>
> To solder, prep the wire by cleaning and applying a coat of solder to each piece (this is called tinning). If you can solder the wires together side by side rather than end to end. Place some very thing sheet between the wire and the rest of the wires and push the broken wires against it. Solder it. Make sure the surfaces are smooth, that the solder joint is made well. Place a dob of epoxy over the joint and heat it for 24 hours under a light lamp or in an open over set to low (heat helps set expoxy nice and hard. No more then 100C. 50-60C is really good.  If there is an over-goop that may rest on the block file it off so there is some clearance. This might be a better than new fix.
>
>
> On 15/08/2010, at 7:46 AM, patrickj_crum wrote:
>
> > Thanks, I'm going to take a look tomorrow. I haven't touched it in about 5 or 6 years though.
> >
> > --- In [hidden email], "Dave Murray" <redhawk34@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I lost the alternator after reassembling the motor. Took it apart and found that one of the mounting nut washers had crimped a winding wire, causing a dead short. I used a smaller washer, put a dollop of epoxy on the scraped insulation varnish, and all was well. Inspect the unit closely, you might find something similar.
> > > DWM
> > >
> > > --- In [hidden email], "patrickj_crum" <patrickcrum@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi guys, haven't posted here in a LONG time.
> > > > I think my alternator is dead-
> > > > 2002 iron bullet- 4 wire alternator.
> > > > With the engine running, I'm getting about 12 to 12.5 volts, off idle. It doesn't climb with the rpms, and never gets above 12.5
> > > > Battery charges and holds 12.9 volts if I plug it to a charger.
> > > > I checked across the purple leads and I'm getting about 1.1 ohms resistance with the multimeter set for 200.
> > > > Both the yellow and amber leads show continuity to earth- I don't think it's supposed to.
> > > >
> > > > Before I plonk down $300 on a new one, I'd like you guys' opinion.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Pat
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: dead alternator?

patrickj_crum
Well it appears that the alternator is toast. I found that wires had rubbed through in the edge of the alternator itself. I pulled it, and desoldered the wiring harness, with the intent of fabricating a new one. prior to soldering the new one on, I put a meter to the connecting points. I found that the amber point was still shorting to ground. Closer inspection showed a carbon buildup on the inside of one of the coils. I scraped away with a knife and found that the wire had broken and was apparently arcing there. So i suppose a new one is in order.
Thanks for all the help and advise guys! I'll try to be more active here!
Cheers,
Pat


--- In [hidden email], "patrickj_crum" <patrickcrum@...> wrote:

>
> i guess i should clarify- it has been working fine for the last 5-6 years, so I don't think I broke anything when I put it together.
> Thanks though. If it turns out to be the harness, it doesn't sound like it will be too hard to repair/replace.
> Cheers,
> Pat
>
> --- In [hidden email], lee eldridge <egdirdle@> wrote:
> >
> > Not too late.
> >
> > If the repair is possible then you will need to scrape the insulation off the wire anyway.
> >
> > To solder, prep the wire by cleaning and applying a coat of solder to each piece (this is called tinning). If you can solder the wires together side by side rather than end to end. Place some very thing sheet between the wire and the rest of the wires and push the broken wires against it. Solder it. Make sure the surfaces are smooth, that the solder joint is made well. Place a dob of epoxy over the joint and heat it for 24 hours under a light lamp or in an open over set to low (heat helps set expoxy nice and hard. No more then 100C. 50-60C is really good.  If there is an over-goop that may rest on the block file it off so there is some clearance. This might be a better than new fix.
> >
> >
> > On 15/08/2010, at 7:46 AM, patrickj_crum wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks, I'm going to take a look tomorrow. I haven't touched it in about 5 or 6 years though.
> > >
> > > --- In [hidden email], "Dave Murray" <redhawk34@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I lost the alternator after reassembling the motor. Took it apart and found that one of the mounting nut washers had crimped a winding wire, causing a dead short. I used a smaller washer, put a dollop of epoxy on the scraped insulation varnish, and all was well. Inspect the unit closely, you might find something similar.
> > > > DWM
> > > >
> > > > --- In [hidden email], "patrickj_crum" <patrickcrum@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi guys, haven't posted here in a LONG time.
> > > > > I think my alternator is dead-
> > > > > 2002 iron bullet- 4 wire alternator.
> > > > > With the engine running, I'm getting about 12 to 12.5 volts, off idle. It doesn't climb with the rpms, and never gets above 12.5
> > > > > Battery charges and holds 12.9 volts if I plug it to a charger.
> > > > > I checked across the purple leads and I'm getting about 1.1 ohms resistance with the multimeter set for 200.
> > > > > Both the yellow and amber leads show continuity to earth- I don't think it's supposed to.
> > > > >
> > > > > Before I plonk down $300 on a new one, I'd like you guys' opinion.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > Pat
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: dead alternator?

Kim Jensen
Go for the 120W Lucas upgrade..money well spend. (just about the only parts on mine that actually works..)

--- In [hidden email], "patrickj_crum" <patrickcrum@...> wrote:

>
> Well it appears that the alternator is toast. I found that wires had rubbed through in the edge of the alternator itself. I pulled it, and desoldered the wiring harness, with the intent of fabricating a new one. prior to soldering the new one on, I put a meter to the connecting points. I found that the amber point was still shorting to ground. Closer inspection showed a carbon buildup on the inside of one of the coils. I scraped away with a knife and found that the wire had broken and was apparently arcing there. So i suppose a new one is in order.
> Thanks for all the help and advise guys! I'll try to be more active here!
> Cheers,
> Pat
>
>
> --- In [hidden email], "patrickj_crum" <patrickcrum@> wrote:
> >
> > i guess i should clarify- it has been working fine for the last 5-6 years, so I don't think I broke anything when I put it together.
> > Thanks though. If it turns out to be the harness, it doesn't sound like it will be too hard to repair/replace.
> > Cheers,
> > Pat
> >
> > --- In [hidden email], lee eldridge <egdirdle@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Not too late.
> > >
> > > If the repair is possible then you will need to scrape the insulation off the wire anyway.
> > >
> > > To solder, prep the wire by cleaning and applying a coat of solder to each piece (this is called tinning). If you can solder the wires together side by side rather than end to end. Place some very thing sheet between the wire and the rest of the wires and push the broken wires against it. Solder it. Make sure the surfaces are smooth, that the solder joint is made well. Place a dob of epoxy over the joint and heat it for 24 hours under a light lamp or in an open over set to low (heat helps set expoxy nice and hard. No more then 100C. 50-60C is really good.  If there is an over-goop that may rest on the block file it off so there is some clearance. This might be a better than new fix.
> > >
> > >
> > > On 15/08/2010, at 7:46 AM, patrickj_crum wrote:
> > >
> > > > Thanks, I'm going to take a look tomorrow. I haven't touched it in about 5 or 6 years though.
> > > >
> > > > --- In [hidden email], "Dave Murray" <redhawk34@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I lost the alternator after reassembling the motor. Took it apart and found that one of the mounting nut washers had crimped a winding wire, causing a dead short. I used a smaller washer, put a dollop of epoxy on the scraped insulation varnish, and all was well. Inspect the unit closely, you might find something similar.
> > > > > DWM
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In [hidden email], "patrickj_crum" <patrickcrum@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi guys, haven't posted here in a LONG time.
> > > > > > I think my alternator is dead-
> > > > > > 2002 iron bullet- 4 wire alternator.
> > > > > > With the engine running, I'm getting about 12 to 12.5 volts, off idle. It doesn't climb with the rpms, and never gets above 12.5
> > > > > > Battery charges and holds 12.9 volts if I plug it to a charger.
> > > > > > I checked across the purple leads and I'm getting about 1.1 ohms resistance with the multimeter set for 200.
> > > > > > Both the yellow and amber leads show continuity to earth- I don't think it's supposed to.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Before I plonk down $300 on a new one, I'd like you guys' opinion.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > > Pat
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Re: dead alternator?

Sali Rostami
  Pat, perhaps the coils are replaceable separately.I vaguely recall some
reference to an Indian based supplier having them available. Such an approach
would certainly be much cheaper than a complete replacement.

  Al




________________________________
From: meharidude <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Mon, August 16, 2010 9:53:39 AM
Subject: [Enfield] Re: dead alternator?

 
Go for the 120W Lucas upgrade..money well spend. (just about the only parts on
mine that actually works..)

--- In [hidden email], "patrickj_crum" <patrickcrum@...> wrote:

>
> Well it appears that the alternator is toast. I found that wires had rubbed
>through in the edge of the alternator itself. I pulled it, and desoldered the
>wiring harness, with the intent of fabricating a new one. prior to soldering the
>new one on, I put a meter to the connecting points. I found that the amber point
>was still shorting to ground. Closer inspection showed a carbon buildup on the
>inside of one of the coils. I scraped away with a knife and found that the wire
>had broken and was apparently arcing there. So i suppose a new one is in order.
>
> Thanks for all the help and advise guys! I'll try to be more active here!
> Cheers,
> Pat
>
>
> --- In [hidden email], "patrickj_crum" <patrickcrum@> wrote:
> >
> > i guess i should clarify- it has been working fine for the last 5-6 years, so
>I don't think I broke anything when I put it together.
>
> > Thanks though. If it turns out to be the harness, it doesn't sound like it
>will be too hard to repair/replace.
>
> > Cheers,
> > Pat
> >
> > --- In [hidden email], lee eldridge <egdirdle@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Not too late.
> > >
> > > If the repair is possible then you will need to scrape the insulation off
>the wire anyway.
> > >
> > > To solder, prep the wire by cleaning and applying a coat of solder to each
>piece (this is called tinning). If you can solder the wires together side by
>side rather than end to end. Place some very thing sheet between the wire and
>the rest of the wires and push the broken wires against it. Solder it. Make sure
>the surfaces are smooth, that the solder joint is made well. Place a dob of
>epoxy over the joint and heat it for 24 hours under a light lamp or in an open
>over set to low (heat helps set expoxy nice and hard. No more then 100C. 50-60C
>is really good. If there is an over-goop that may rest on the block file it off
>so there is some clearance. This might be a better than new fix.
> > >
> > >
> > > On 15/08/2010, at 7:46 AM, patrickj_crum wrote:
> > >
> > > > Thanks, I'm going to take a look tomorrow. I haven't touched it in about
>5 or 6 years though.
>
> > > >
> > > > --- In [hidden email], "Dave Murray" <redhawk34@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I lost the alternator after reassembling the motor. Took it apart and
>found that one of the mounting nut washers had crimped a winding wire, causing a
>dead short. I used a smaller washer, put a dollop of epoxy on the scraped
>insulation varnish, and all was well. Inspect the unit closely, you might find
>something similar.
> > > > > DWM
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In [hidden email], "patrickj_crum" <patrickcrum@>
>wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi guys, haven't posted here in a LONG time.
> > > > > > I think my alternator is dead-
> > > > > > 2002 iron bullet- 4 wire alternator.
> > > > > > With the engine running, I'm getting about 12 to 12.5 volts, off
>idle. It doesn't climb with the rpms, and never gets above 12.5
> > > > > > Battery charges and holds 12.9 volts if I plug it to a charger.
> > > > > > I checked across the purple leads and I'm getting about 1.1 ohms
>resistance with the multimeter set for 200.
>
> > > > > > Both the yellow and amber leads show continuity to earth- I don't
>think it's supposed to.
>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Before I plonk down $300 on a new one, I'd like you guys' opinion.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > > Pat
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>





     
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Re: dead alternator?

lee eldridge
In reply to this post by patrickj_crum
Yep. I would replace that one.

I have had old tractor generators rewound but it was expensive. A new one, high capacity, from India is under $AUD25 (100Rs)

On 16/08/2010, at 11:46 PM, patrickj_crum wrote:

> Well it appears that the alternator is toast. I found that wires had rubbed through in the edge of the alternator itself. I pulled it, and desoldered the wiring harness, with the intent of fabricating a new one. prior to soldering the new one on, I put a meter to the connecting points. I found that the amber point was still shorting to ground. Closer inspection showed a carbon buildup on the inside of one of the coils. I scraped away with a knife and found that the wire had broken and was apparently arcing there. So i suppose a new one is in order.
> Thanks for all the help and advise guys! I'll try to be more active here!
> Cheers,
> Pat
>
> --- In [hidden email], "patrickj_crum" <patrickcrum@...> wrote:
> >
> > i guess i should clarify- it has been working fine for the last 5-6 years, so I don't think I broke anything when I put it together.
> > Thanks though. If it turns out to be the harness, it doesn't sound like it will be too hard to repair/replace.
> > Cheers,
> > Pat
> >
> > --- In [hidden email], lee eldridge <egdirdle@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Not too late.
> > >
> > > If the repair is possible then you will need to scrape the insulation off the wire anyway.
> > >
> > > To solder, prep the wire by cleaning and applying a coat of solder to each piece (this is called tinning). If you can solder the wires together side by side rather than end to end. Place some very thing sheet between the wire and the rest of the wires and push the broken wires against it. Solder it. Make sure the surfaces are smooth, that the solder joint is made well. Place a dob of epoxy over the joint and heat it for 24 hours under a light lamp or in an open over set to low (heat helps set expoxy nice and hard. No more then 100C. 50-60C is really good. If there is an over-goop that may rest on the block file it off so there is some clearance. This might be a better than new fix.
> > >
> > >
> > > On 15/08/2010, at 7:46 AM, patrickj_crum wrote:
> > >
> > > > Thanks, I'm going to take a look tomorrow. I haven't touched it in about 5 or 6 years though.
> > > >
> > > > --- In [hidden email], "Dave Murray" <redhawk34@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I lost the alternator after reassembling the motor. Took it apart and found that one of the mounting nut washers had crimped a winding wire, causing a dead short. I used a smaller washer, put a dollop of epoxy on the scraped insulation varnish, and all was well. Inspect the unit closely, you might find something similar.
> > > > > DWM
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In [hidden email], "patrickj_crum" <patrickcrum@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi guys, haven't posted here in a LONG time.
> > > > > > I think my alternator is dead-
> > > > > > 2002 iron bullet- 4 wire alternator.
> > > > > > With the engine running, I'm getting about 12 to 12.5 volts, off idle. It doesn't climb with the rpms, and never gets above 12.5
> > > > > > Battery charges and holds 12.9 volts if I plug it to a charger.
> > > > > > I checked across the purple leads and I'm getting about 1.1 ohms resistance with the multimeter set for 200.
> > > > > > Both the yellow and amber leads show continuity to earth- I don't think it's supposed to.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Before I plonk down $300 on a new one, I'd like you guys' opinion.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > > Pat
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>

12